Counter steering

[malJohann]

That's interesting !
I've heard a lot of riders talk about press down on pegs, but I assumed they were pressing down on the side they were turning into, you're suggesting the opposite ?
I feel a video coming on .....

I mis-read his reply the first time, you apply momentary pressure on the outside peg to shift your weight to the inside, then most of your weight goes on the inside peg, some on the outside, right knee locked into the tank, left cheek off the saddle. Your body should be locked into the bike, so your arms are loose on the handle bars.

 

[Lurch]

This shows what happens when you lean with no handlebar input:

 

[O8ride]

This shows what happens when you lean with no handlebar input:

Brilliant Lurch, that seems to put things in real context.

 

[Lurch]

Might try and remember to do a vid on this next week if I can. Just think that a lot of touring riders when they turn keep their body near upright even though the bike is leaning, so it's definitely not the CoG making the bike turn.

 

[malJohann]

Might try and remember to do a vid on this next week if I can. Just think that a lot of touring riders when they turn keep their body near upright even though the bike is leaning, so it's definitely not the CoG making the bike turn.

..but to day that it doesn't help would be a blatant lie, otherwise the MotoGP riders would all have done the sack-of-potatoes technique.

 

[Lurch]

No, it is part of turning the bike, it isn't turning the bike. That's the point of this thread really. Comparing normal road riding to racing bikes isn't really a comparison, most bikers on the road can't ride like a MotoGP rider, much as they think they can, and hanging off the bike isn't actually necessary to safely turn a bike off a track. I would even go so far as that most people wouldn't know WHY a MotoGP rider hangs off the bike.

 

[bikeriderscotland]

Hmmm, I dunno,
I'd be inclined to say the bigger the bike, the more you need to countersteer to get the "fat fucker" round the bend.

 

[malJohann]

Counter steering and leaning is part and parcel, equipping people with knowledge is never a bad thing, even if they end up never using it.

 

[Lurch]

Hmmm, I dunno,
I'd be inclined to say the bigger the bike, the more you need to countersteer to get the "fat fucker" round the bend.

It's pure physics, the heavier the bike, the more the centripetal forces come in to effect, which are affected by speed and of course by weight, think of swinging something around on a string, the father you spin it, the more it pulls on your arm. etc etc.

Counter steering and leaning is all to do with the imaginary line of your AVERAGE angle to the ground. Hanging off the bike actually REDUCES the bike's lean angle, thus allowing it to be more upright in a corner, and in extreme cornering, stops the bike from grounding out and you sliding in to the kitty litter. If you stayed in line with the bike in an extreme corner, you'd need to lean the bike more than if you hung off the side.

Hence why 90% of riders on the road don't need to hang off, not many can actually achieve a critical speed round a bend. Those who try and don't have the ability just wake up to find themselves in critical care...

 

[CaturLifeLive]

This shows what happens when you lean with no handlebar input:

good thing to explain it

 

[GixxersShadow]

Counter Steering....The one concept that no one really truly understands...lol

 

[Syntaxxor]

Everyone new and old should watch Twist of the Wrist from beginning to end.

 

[Lurch]

More science stuff:

 

[SwissMotard]

After reading up on this, it's something I have done all along anyway =/

 

[Syntaxxor]

After reading up on this, it's something I have done all along anyway =/

Most people counter steer without realizing it. Even when you first learn to ride a bicycle you start doing it. It's when you know it's limits and how to manipulate it in your favor that you can hang with Valentino Rossi and gang. (after years of practice lol)

 

[thunderous71]

Most people counter steer without realizing it.

Perfectly said, everyone counter steers above about 12mph regardless if you know it or not. To put it simple forget motorbikes etc and look back to the days of your pedal bike.

When you rode slowly about you turned the bars very deliberately in the direction you wanted to go. Now when you rode fast you no longer used that deliberate turn in the direction you wanted to go, because you learned the hard way you would crash. You leaned over, as you did so two things happened (and this is where people counter steer without knowing it). As you lean you naturally pull on the bars on the opposite side of the corner to keep your balance this initiates a counter steer as the counter steer takes effect you now pull your self back using the bars equaling out the counter steer but also shifting you're weight did unbalances the bike into the corner because of the low speed and weight relative to a motorbike.

Now you do exactly the same on a motorbike with a big difference. Your weight will NOT effect the direction of travel that much. This is because of the gyroscopic effect of the wheels, without going into the math behind it. If you spin a spinning top very fast and then attempt to knock it over it soon finds its center again and continues to spin in an upright position. You have seen riderless bike go down the race track in a straight line, this sin't because the steering bearings are jammed

So when at speed on a bike and you need to turn you initiate the fall of the bike to the corner by unbalancing it, learning off the bike does very little but many of you will lean and at the same time pull on the far side of the bar without realizing it causing a counter steer.

So why do GP riders lean? It's to keep the center of gravity on the bike as upright as possible and enable more speed... but that is another story!

 

[AndyManCam]

And once you've mastered all that and got yourself into a stable turn quickly, you need to start thinking about how to maintain that turn!

Because as you lean over, due to the curved profile of the tyre, the diameter of your wheels actually becomes smaller. So to maintain your speed you need to increase the power to compensate for the 'smaller' rear wheel. If you don't the bike will actually slow down. And everybody who's grabbed a handful of brake on a roundabout will know, this makes the bike stand up again, ruining your perfectly executed turn and sending you straight ahead!

So remember to smoothly increase the revs as you lean.

Also, you can use brute force countersteering to keep the bike down when you grab the brakes in a turn. Providing you have enough grip, increase the pressure on the countersteering side as you apply the brakes to keep the bike from standing up and embedding itself in that Transit that just pulled in front of you.

 

[AndyManCam]

This is worth a good read too. It's a booklet on bike control created by a Norwegian Motorcycling organisation. Some really good tips and thorough explanations in there.

http://www.fema-online.eu/index.php...tail,0&cntnt01articleid=62&cntnt01returnid=15

 

[AndyManCam]

Hmmm, I dunno,
I'd be inclined to say the bigger the bike, the more you need to countersteer to get the "fat fucker" round the bend.

I agree entirely. My old Fazer 600 just felt like it WANTED to lean over into the bends. Extremely flickable for a mainstream mid range bike.

But my Dad's Zephyr 750, is an absolute pain to get over. The thing just wants to go straight all the time.

 

[AndyManCam]

I mis-read his reply the first time, you apply momentary pressure on the outside peg to shift your weight to the inside, then most of your weight goes on the inside peg, some on the outside, right knee locked into the tank, left cheek off the saddle. Your body should be locked into the bike, so your arms are loose on the handle bars.

Exactly what I was getting at. The seat gets forced into the crook of your knee by the force on the outside peg. So there's nowhere for your body to go but inside the turn. It took me a fair while to feel comfortable with no pressure on the bars at all. But eventually I could corner quite comfortably with one hand completely off the bars. Guess which one?...