Counter steering

[kuhlka]

More science stuff:

I'd just like to point out it's Centrifugal force (pushing your mass outward from the center of a turn) that you're fighting as you tip a bike into a corner. Centripetal force is purely theoretical.

I'm always surprised by how many people don't realize you always counter-steer above ~15mph unless your rear end starts sliding.

 

[AndyManCam]

I'd just like to point out it's Centrifugal force (pushing your mass outward from the center of a turn) that you're fighting as you tip a bike into a corner. Centripetal force is purely theoretical.

I'm always surprised by how many people don't realize you always counter-steer above ~15mph unless your rear end starts sliding.

I think you'll find it's the other way around dear fellow! Centripetal force is the very real force that in this instance is applied by your tyres and maintain your movement on a circular path. Centrifugal force is more notional because it is based on the idea that things are thrown 'outwards' from the centre of the rotation when in actual fact, they simply continue forwards as there is a LACK of centripetal force.

That said, I totally agree with you! I didn't even know I was counter steering until my far more experienced step father pointed it out to me! I'd been riding for 2 years by then!

 

[Lurch]

Are you sure you've got that right there @kuhlka sir?

Edit: Beaten to it!!

 

[AndyManCam]

Are you sure you've got that right there @kuhlka sir?

Edit: Beaten to it!!

I don't get to be a smart-ass often! My time to shine!

 

[kuhlka]

I think you'll find it's the other way around dear fellow! Centripetal force is the very real force that in this instance is applied by your tyres and maintain your movement on a circular path. Centrifugal force is more notional because it is based on the idea that things are thrown 'outwards' from the centre of the rotation when in actual fact, they simply continue forwards as there is a LACK of centripetal force.

That said, I totally agree with you! I didn't even know I was counter steering until my far more experienced step father pointed it out to me! I'd been riding for 2 years by then!

Duh, I got mixed up. It's really an annoying concept to visualize. Centrifugal force is really just inertial momentum attempting to follow a tangent line out of the curve.

 

[AndyManCam]

Duh, I got mixed up. It's really an annoying concept to visualize. Centrifugal force is really just inertial momentum attempting to follow a tangent line out of the curve.

Exactly! Why didn't I just say that!

 

[kuhlka]

That said, I totally agree with you! I didn't even know I was counter steering until my far more experienced step father pointed it out to me! I'd been riding for 2 years by then!

I guess I'm lucky. I grew up with my father demonstrating all of the core fundamentals of riding when I was on the back as a little kid. Stuff like counter-steering, not stopping in tire ruts or the middle of the lane at stoplights (oil slick), how/where/when to look and avoid getting killed... I'm going to start up a riding series from total newbie education to advanced stuff like trail-braking through corners. Luckily I'm in one of the twistiest parts of the country where it's a dry 70-80F most of the year.

 

[kuhlka]

Looks like this site is calling centripetal force cornering force. https://www.rightturn.com/tire-facts/cornering-force/

Oh so many vlogs and How-To's one could do on this topic to further convolute and confuse people.

 

[AndyManCam]

Looks like this site is calling centripetal force cornering force. https://www.rightturn.com/tire-facts/cornering-force/

Oh so many vlogs and How-To's one could do on this topic to further convolute and confuse people.

So true! And especially when you get into the whole business of how you countersteer to start with, then the tire turns back in once it's settled in the turn, but then you counter steer AGAIN to get out of the turn and set the bike upright again! Our brains are so clever, they figure all this out for us1 I guess that's why many riding schools just teach "look where you want to go".

As Bruce Lee once said about punching and kicking; when you do something, it feels natural. But then you study what it is you're doing and suddenly it's unnatural and confusing. But then through that study you understand that thing and suddenly it is natural again, but now you've mastered it. Or something.

 

[Lurch]

It's relatively complex how it works, but simple at the same time. While the physics of it requires a good knowledge of forces, vectors and some moderate mathematics, a basic understanding of how and more importantly the why is essential. If a bend changes radius then as long as you know you need to countersteer to correct, or in layman's term, know to push away on the handlebar in the direction you need, then it will help. Really must get to doing that video on it at some point. There's a long constant radius bend near me that's gentle enough to allow for demonstable corrections I'll use. There's a belting decreasing radius bend too, but that's over an hour away. Must be one nearer, not sure where though!

 

[AndyManCam]

It's relatively complex how it works, but simple at the same time. While the physics of it requires a good knowledge of forces, vectors and some moderate mathematics, a basic understanding of how and more importantly the why is essential. If a bend changes radius then as long as you know you need to countersteer to correct, or in layman's term, know to push away on the handlebar in the direction you need, then it will help. Really must get to doing that video on it at some point. There's a long constant radius bend near me that's gentle enough to allow for demonstable corrections I'll use. There's a belting decreasing radius bend too, but that's over an hour away. Must be one nearer, not sure where though!

An hour away? Just sounds like a great excuse for an hour long ride to me!!

 

[Lurch]

Probably 4 hour round trip with the route I'd take

 

[kuhlka]

It's relatively complex how it works, but simple at the same time. While the physics of it requires a good knowledge of forces, vectors and some moderate mathematics, a basic understanding of how and more importantly the why is essential. If a bend changes radius then as long as you know you need to countersteer to correct, or in layman's term, know to push away on the handlebar in the direction you need, then it will help. Really must get to doing that video on it at some point. There's a long constant radius bend near me that's gentle enough to allow for demonstable corrections I'll use. There's a belting decreasing radius bend too, but that's over an hour away. Must be one nearer, not sure where though!

I'm planning to do a full skills and street survival series over spring/summer as I have time. I've got twisty canyon roads all over where I am. I'll get a bellypan view of the front wheel to show how much the wheel turns counter to the direction I'm going as I rip through the canyons.

 

[biker1968]

It really doesn't matter how riders INTERPRET what is going on. The whole movement of a bike is subject to the laws of physics.
I have found that the most accurate descriptions of what is physically happening to be the most enlightening done by non bike riders (scientists)
When some one says they are just leaning the bike into a corner...they are still counter steering because there is physically no other way for the bike to take on a circular trajectory, they just don't recognise the actions that are being taken..... look what happens when you stop applying the principles of push left/ Lean left if you are in a left hand bend ---- you will straighten up (same applies for a right hand bend). Now actually turning the front wheel in the direction of the turn is something you would only do at low speed when you don't need to rely on centrifugal forces to get you round. I would not dream of trying to turn the wheel INTO a high speed turn. To make it all easier to remember, and to drop the whys and wherefores of the physics involved...just remember this useful old moto I was taught. Push Left, Lean Left Turn Left. Push right, Lean Right Turn Right...simples...

 

[kuhlka]

It really doesn't matter how riders INTERPRET what is going on. The whole movement of a bike is subject to the laws of physics.
I have found that the most accurate descriptions of what is physically happening to be the most enlightening done by non bike riders (scientists)
When some one says they are just leaning the bike into a corner...they are still counter steering because there is physically no other way for the bike to take on a circular trajectory, they just don't recognise the actions that are being taken..... look what happens when you stop applying the principles of push left/ Lean left if you are in a left hand bend ---- you will straighten up (same applies for a right hand bend). Now actually turning the front wheel in the direction of the turn is something you would only do at low speed when you don't need to rely on centrifugal forces to get you round. I would not dream of trying to turn the wheel INTO a high speed turn. To make it all easier to remember, and to drop the whys and wherefores of the physics involved...just remember this useful old moto I was taught. Push Left, Lean Left Turn Left. Push right, Lean Right Turn Right...simples...

Exactly. If you want the bike to turn at speed, you push the direction you want to go. You never stop pushing unless you want the bike to go back upright or you're temporarily reducing lean angle mid-turn. I think many people probably oversteer to initiate their turns then think that temporary correction is them no longer counter-steering.

 

[MattFazakarley]

I think im far too thick to understand counter-steering... anyone dumb it down for me? ill watch the video when im not in work lol

 

[Mach1 Aus]

I think hey go hand in hand

 

[WhiteNinja]

I think im far too thick to understand counter-steering... anyone dumb it down for me? ill watch the video when im not in work lol

Let's see dumb it down. Could be tough and wrong may get some backlash but I'll give it a try.

Counter steering is initiating a turn. Think about when you were riding a bike ... Know when you came to a turn you went wide and then turned in?

So on a left turn you're going straight...left turn comes up...you go to the right a tiny bit and then make your left turn. What you're doing is initiating that turn by counter steering which leans the bike into that turn. Same concept with a motorcycle. However when people are riding a bike you don't think its counter steering because it never comes up its just naturally done when you're of speed you just know what to do. Very much like a motorcycle everyone hears it over thinks it but when you get on a motorcycle you just do it.

Take a bicycle have it standing still and turn the handlebars one way. Bike won't fall down the way you turn but start to lean and fall over the opposite way.

Not sure if that helps or would be 100% correct but someone will correct me if I'm way off.

 

[MattFazakarley]

Let's see dumb it down. Could be tough and wrong may get some backlash but I'll give it a try.

Counter steering is initiating a turn. Think about when you were riding a bike ... Know when you came to a turn you went wide and then turned in?

So on a left turn you're going straight...left turn comes up...you go to the right a tiny bit and then make your left turn. What you're doing is initiating that turn by counter steering which leans the bike into that turn. Same concept with a motorcycle. However when people are riding a bike you don't think its counter steering because it never comes up its just naturally done when you're of speed you just know what to do. Very much like a motorcycle everyone hears it over thinks it but when you get on a motorcycle you just do it.

Take a bicycle have it standing still and turn the handlebars one way. Bike won't fall down the way you turn but start to lean and fall over the opposite way.

Not sure if that helps or would be 100% correct but someone will correct me if I'm way off.

Thank you... i get what you mean, by no means to i lean far enough into a corner to need this but i get the general concept. Like when i swerve to avoid something sharply i guess it just comes as instinct to do it so i dont come off the bike...

 

[WhiteNinja]

Thank you... i get what you mean, by no means to i lean far enough into a corner to need this but i get the general concept. Like when i swerve to avoid something sharply i guess it just comes as instinct to do it so i dont come off the bike...

You do it all the time of you're aware or not while riding. Be it on a turn swerving out of the way etc every time you ride you use counter steering. Again people will probably chime in and correct me a bit and give a better explanation as described in previous posts as well