Beginning To Ride Shortly

[Sergent31]

I will be getting my first sport bike in the next few months and i really want atleast a 600 but after seeing "beginner bike videos" everyone is saying to get a 250. I havent rode before but have lots of knowledge from countless hours of motovlogs, reading forums, ect. I know "how" to ride a bike and the mechanical aspect of shifting gears and a clutch from having a manual truck so what do you guys think? Also im curious about aftermarket quickshifters. I see alot of highend bikes with them stock but have yet to find ANY 600 bike with it stock. And my final concern is new or used? Dealership or private sale? My plan is to put down a decent down payment and finance the rest weather it be a used or new bike from a dealer. I am kinda leaning toward a nice used bike because i honestly wont have much time home during my military training and dont want to deal with a break in period. Thanks for reading and any recommendations or advice will be highly appreciated!

 

[Reize]

New and Used have totally different advantages and disadvantages.

Buying New : Better assurance of good condition, less hassle in the buying process usually. On the other hand, you are taking the kick in your balls after 1 or 2 years of depreciation where it's the highest. It's also more expensive than used, so if you crash, you feel the pinch more.

Buying Used : Cheaper most of the time, someone has taken the depreciation hit for you, generally not a big deal if you crash it. On the other hand getting a good bike in working order is like playing Russian roulette, you almost never know what you get until you pull the trigger, a lot of mechanical faults can be hidden and won't be found until months down the road. Also sometimes a huge hassle trying to compare different bikes and dealers to get the best value and the best condition of bike.

 

[Pigs]

There are more bikes out there than just 250s and 600s. Ninja 650r or the suzuki sv650(if you don't like those, then theres the yamaha fz6r, honda cbr650f, suzuki gsx650f, yamaha fz07, list goes on and on...) These bikes have power bands suitable for beginners(but are still faster than 99% of the cars on the road).

Also, I recommend taking at least the msf course.

(copy paste from another forum, its worth a read)

One of the most common questions new sport bike riders have is, "What kind of bike should I get?" This question is asked so often that I created a standardized response. Please keep in mind that these are the views and opinions of one person (albeit countless other also hold them) With that said, on we go...

Getting ANY modern 600cc sport bike for a first ride is a bad idea (far, far, far worse is a 1000cc). In fact, it may be nothing more than an expensive form of suicide. Here are a few reasons why:

1. Knowledge of Subject Matter
When anyone starts something new they find themselves at the most basic point of the "beginner's mind". This is to say that they are at the very start of the learning curve. They are not even aware of what it is that they don't know. A personal example of this is when I began Shotokan Karate. The first day of class I had no idea what an "inside-block" was, let alone how to do it with correct form, power, and consistency. After some time, and a lot of practice, I could only then realize how bad my form really was. Then, and only then, was I able to begin the process of improving it. I had to become knowledgeable that inside-blocks even existed before I was aware that I could not do them correctly. I had to learn what the correct elements of inside-block were, before I realized that I did not have those elements. After I learned, I was then able to aspire towards the proper elements. This example is to illustrate the point that it takes knowledge OF something in order to understand how that something works, functions, performs, etc. Now lets return to the world of motorcycles. A beginner has NO motorcycle experience. They are not even aware of the power, mistakes, handling, shifting, turning dynamics etc. of any bike, let alone a high performance sport bike. Not only does the beginner lack the SKILL of how to ride a motorcycle, they also lack the knowledge of WHAT skills they need to learn. Acquiring those skills comes only with experience and learning from mistakes. As one moves through the learning curve they begin to amass new information...they also make mistakes. A ton of them.

2. The Learning Curve
While learning to do something, your first efforts are often sloppy and full of mistakes. Without mistakes the learning process is impossible. A mistake on a sport bike can be fatal. The things new riders need to learn above all else is smooth throttle control, proper speed, and how to lean going into turns. A 600cc bike can reach 60mph in about 3 to 5 seconds. A simple beginners mishap with that much power and torque can cost you your life (or a few limbs) before you even knew what happened. Grab a handful of throttle going into a turn and you may end up crossing that little yellow line on the road into on-coming traffic...**shudder**. Bikes that are more forgiving of mistakes are far safer (not to mention, more fun) to learn on.
Ask yourself this question; in which manner would you rather learn to walk on a circus high-wire (1) with a 4x4 board that is 2 feet off the ground (2) with a wire that is 20 feet off the ground? Most sensible people would choose (1). The reason why is obvious. Unfortunately safety concerns with a first motorcycle aren't as apparent as they are in the example above. However, the wrong choice of what equipment to learn on can be just as deadly, regardless of how safe, careful, and level-headed you intend to be.

3. "But I Will be Safe, Responsible, and Level-Headed While Learning".
Sorry, but this line of reasoning doesn't cut it. To be safe you also need SKILL (throttle control, speed, leaning, etc). Skill comes ONLY with experience. To gain experience you must ride in real traffic, with real cars, and real dangers. Before that experience is developed, you are best suited with a bike that won't severely punish you for minor mistakes. A cutting edge race bike is not one of these bikes.
Imagine someone saying, "I want to learn to juggle, but I'm going to start by learning with chainsaws. But don't worry. I intend to go slow, be careful, stay level-headed, and respect the power of the chainsaws while I'm learning". Like the high-wire example, the proper route here isn't hard to see. Be "careful" all you want, go as "slow" as you want, be as "cautious" as you want, be as "respectful" as you want...your still juggling chainsaws! The "level-headed" thing to do in this situation is NOT to start with chainsaws. Without a foundation in place of HOW to juggle there is only a small level of safety you can aspire towards. Plain and simple, it's just better to learn juggling with tennis balls than it with chainsaws. The same holds true for learning to ride a motorcycle. Start with a solid foundation in the basics, and then move up. Many people say that "maturity" will help you be safe with motorcycles. They are correct. However, maturity has NOTHING to do with learning to ride a motorcycle. Maturity is what you SHOULD use when deciding what kind of bike to buy so that you may learn to ride a motorcycle safely.

4. "I Don't Want a Bike I'll Outgrow"
Please. Did your Momma put you in size 9 shoes at age 2? Get with the program. It is far better to maximize the performance of a smaller motorcycle and get "bored" with it than it is to mess-up your really fast bike (not mention messing yourself up) and not being able to ride at all. Power is nothing without control.

 

[Pigs]

part 2

5. "I Don't Want to Waste Money on a Bike I'll Only Have for a Short Period of Time" (i.e. cost)
Smaller, used bikes have and retain good resale value. This is because other sane people will want them as learner bikes. You'll prolly be able to sell a used learner bike for as much as you paid for it. If you can't afford to upgrade in a year or two, then you definitely can't afford to wreck the bike your dreaming about. At the very least, most new riders drop bikes going under 20MPH, when the bike is at its most unstable periods. If you drop your brand new bike, fresh off the showroom floor, while your learning (and you will), you've just broken a directional, perhaps a brake or clutch lever, cracked / scrapped the fairings ($300.00 each to replace), messed-up the engine casing, messed-up the bar ends, etc. It's better and cheaper to drop a used bike that you don't care about than one you just spent $8,500 on. Fortunately, most of these types of accidents do not result in serious physical injury. It's usually just a big dent in your pride and...

6. EGO.
Worried about looking like chump on a smaller bike? Well, your gonna look like the biggest idiot ever on your brand new, but messed-up bike after you've dropped it a few times. You'll also look really dumb with a badass race bike that you stall 15 times at a red light before you can get into gear. Or even better, how about a nice R6 that you can't ride more than 15mph around a turn because you don't know how to counter-steer correctly? Yeah, your gonna be really cool with that bike, huh? Any real rider would give you props for going about learning to ride the *correct* way (i.e. on a learner bike). If you're stressed about impressing someone with a "cool" bike, or embarrassed about being on smaller bike, then your not "mature enough" to handle the responsibility of ANY motorcycle. Try a bicycle. After you've grow-up ("matured"), revisit the idea of something with an engine.

7. "Don't Ask for Advice if You Don't Want to Hear a Real Answer".


A common pattern:

1. Newbie asks for advice on a 1st bike (Newbie wants to hear certain answers)

2. Experienced riders advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (this is not what Newbie wanted to hear).

3. Newbie says and thinks, "Others mess up while learning, but that wont happen to me" (as if Newbie is invincible, holds superpowers, never makes mistakes, has a "level head", or has a skill set that exceeds the majority of the world, etc).

4. Experienced riders explain why a "level head" isn't enough. You also need SKILL, which can ONLY be gained via experience. (Newbie thinks he has innate motorcycle skills.)

5. Newbie makes up excuses as to why he is "mature" enough to handle a 600cc bike". (skill drives motorcycles, not maturity)

6. Newbie, with no knowledge about motorcycles, totally disregards all the advice he asked for in the first place. (which brings us right back to the VERY FIRST point I made about "knowledge of subject matter").

7. Newbie goes out and buys a R6, CBR, GSX, 6R, etc. Newbie is scared of the power. Being scared of your bike is the LAST thing you want. Newbie gets turned-off to motorcycles, because of fear, and never gets to really experience all the fun that they can really be. Or worse, Newbie gets in a serious accident.

8. The truth of the matter is that Newbie was actually never really looking for serious advice. What he really wanted was validation and / or approval of a choice he was about to make or already had made. When he received real advice instead of validation he became defensive about his ability to handle a modern sport bike as first ride (thus defending the choice he had made). Validation of a poor decision isn't going to replace scratched bodywork on your bike. It isn't going put broken bones back together. It isn't going graft shredded skin back onto your body. It isn't going to teach you to ride a motorcycle the correct way. However, solid advice from experienced riders, when heeded, can help to avoid some of these issues.

I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm being real. Look all over the net. You'll see veteran after veteran telling new riders NOT to get a 600cc bike for a first ride. You'll even see pros saying to start small. Why? Because we hate new riders? Because we don't want others to have cool bikes? Because we want to smash your dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. The more riders the better (assuming there not squids)! The reason people like me and countless others spend so much time trying to dissuade new riders from 600cc bikes is because we actually care about you. We don't want to see people get hurt. We don't want to see more people die in senseless accidents that could have been totally avoided with a little logic and patients. We want the "sport" to grow in a safe, healthy, and sane way. We want you to be around to ride that R6, CBR600RR, GSX-1000, Habayasu, etc that you desire so badly. However, we just want you to be able to ride it in a safe manner that isn't going to be a threat to yourself or others. A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying "600cc bike are OK to start with". Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders* themselves. If you follow their advice you've entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don't listen. *(I consider anyone with under 30,000 miles a noobie)

 

[TheSeacat]

New and Used have totally different advantages and disadvantages.

Buying New : Better assurance of good condition, less hassle in the buying process usually. On the other hand, you are taking the kick in your balls after 1 or 2 years of depreciation where it's the highest. It's also more expensive than used, so if you crash, you feel the pinch more.

Buying Used : Cheaper most of the time, someone has taken the depreciation hit for you, generally not a big deal if you crash it. On the other hand getting a good bike in working order is like playing Russian roulette, you almost never know what you get until you pull the trigger, a lot of mechanical faults can be hidden and won't be found until months down the road. Also sometimes a huge hassle trying to compare different bikes and dealers to get the best value and the best condition of bike.

Very good info here!!
But for size wise ive had 3 friends get 250s and move to 600s in a few months. But its all how comfortable you feel on the bike and if you think you can handle a bigger bike. Ride safe when you do though brother!

 

[Sergent31]

One bike i really like is the ninja ZX6R and when i put 600cc bikes i also ment 650's as well. Is there much of a power difference between 650s and 600s?

There are more bikes out there than just 250s and 600s. Ninja 650r or the suzuki sv650(if you don't like those, then theres the yamaha fz6r, honda cbr650f, suzuki gsx650f, yamaha fz07, list goes on and on...) These bikes have power bands suitable for beginners(but are still faster than 99% of the cars on the road).

Also, I recommend taking at least the msf course.

(copy paste from another forum, its worth a read)

 

[Reize]

One bike i really like is the ninja ZX6R and when i put 600cc bikes i also ment 650's as well. Is there much of a power difference between 650s and 600s?

It's not so much the CCs, than the tuning on the bikes. Most 650cc bikes built around the commuting spectrum are tuned for low end torque, tall gearing for ease of use. While 600cc super sports are tuned to be finicky speed demons with shorter gearing to give more control of speed and power and ensure faster top speed.

That's why your 1300 cc Harley is still slower than a ZX-6R despite having more than twice the raw power.

 

[Sergent31]

Very good info here!!
But for size wise ive had 3 friends get 250s and move to 600s in a few months. But its all how comfortable you feel on the bike and if you think you can handle a bigger bike. Ride safe when you do though brother!

Thats why i dont wanna get a 250 because i dont wanna soend money and then be bored with ot and need a new bike in a few months

 

[Sergent31]

It's not so much the CCs, than the tuning on the bikes. Most 650cc bikes built around the commuting spectrum are tuned for low end torque, tall gearing for ease of use. While 600cc super sports are tuned to be finicky speed demons with shorter gearing to give more control of speed and power and ensure faster top speed.

That's why your 1300 cc Harley is still slower than a ZX-6R despite having more than twice the raw power.

And the fact that they are heavy as a whale lol

 

[Pigs]

Thats why i dont wanna get a 250 because i dont wanna soend money and then be bored with ot and need a new bike in a few months

I started on a smaller bike and probably did 3-4 months of riding it before I got my zx6r. You can buy a ninja 650r for around 3500 used, put 5k miles on it and likely sell it for the same price.

 

[Reize]

Thats why i dont wanna get a 250 because i dont wanna soend money and then be bored with ot and need a new bike in a few months

Hah! I still ride my 153cc FZ16 a lot despite also having a 400cc Shadow around. Because in the city, I can get from point A to point B faster than any 600cc sport bike, lane split faster, do hairpin U-tun maneuvers faster, that any experienced rider on an R1 or GSXR 600 wouldn't even dare to.

Different bikes for different purposes.

 

[Tugboat]

I started riding last year! My first bike was a 1997 suzuki gsxr600. Taught me how to ride quite quickly though I did ride a dirt bike a handful of times. I moved forward to a 2009 Yamaha R1 and it has been an amazing experience. (yes i went from 600cc to 1000cc my first year) I knew the previous owner of the R1 and got it from the dealership he traded it in at. Well kept R1 with stage 2 power programmer and a full graves exhaust. As well as remapped ECU.

I'm not a very good example of what to expect out of your first year of riding as to each person is different. I just say go with your gut and if the 600 scares you get the 250. No one will look down on you for being responsible of your own safety!

thats my 2cents

~Tugboat

 

[lupin]

Quick shifters can be added to anything, it just depends how easy it is to do and if its actually worth it.

As for your ability to ride. Watching motovlogs and the like teaches you nothing.

I'm sure you have realized the same thing happens when you watch porn, and think your good at sex.

 

[BbqRider]

It's exactly as Pigs posted. You've already made your mind up on the 600cc, and you've come here for validation. It's a bad idea. They aren't easy bikes to ride, especially if you've never ridden a bike before. It will be unpleasant to learn on, at the very least. There's nothing wrong with a sporty 650 as a first bike (most would say even that is too much for a complete beginner). If you get bored with the 60+hp of a 650 twin in your first year of riding, then you are doing it wrong.

 

[Lurch]

Get proper training regardless of which bike you buy.

As for the bike, up to you. Not sure there's such thing as a beginners bike, all bikes will get you in to trouble, it's just how quickly you get in to that trouble is down to the power of the bike.

What ever you buy, respect the machine, when you're riding, look ahead, anticipate and plan, that's what will keep you alive. Make sure you can stop in the diatance you can see to be clear (it may be 100' to a concealed entrance), and never ride faster than your angel can fly.

 

[jthomas]

Get a bike that's comfortable for you. There's a lot of mid size bikes now that'll eat up a larger bike unless there's a long enough straight, then when it comes to the corners, its not much about the bike, but the rider.
Best advice is to research as much about the bikes your looking at and if possible take em for a ride. Then get the one you fell in love with.

 

[SalvageSV]

I just started riding last year, and did so on a 1000cc V-Twin. I'll tell you, it isn't easy.

I wanted something like CBR500R to start ... a nicely styled bike but with beginner power levels (47hp). However I ended up with a liter bike and decided to just go with it and take it easy.

My first time out I almost hit a Mercedes S-class in my cul-de-sac. Shortly after I took a detour through my neighbor's yard while practicing in the cul-de-sac again. My first time trying to turn left from a stop I couldn't and ended up in someone's yard and dropped the bike. I dropped the bike when stopped at least 4 times and target fixated on a few mailboxes.

None of these have anything to do with the engine displacement (aside from a couple of the drops due to the weight), but I say all this to illustrate that you will have a learning curve. I was the same as you ... I'd ridden 4-wheelers, so I knew how the clutch, brakes, shifter, etc worked. I've ridden a bike so I know how to balance. I drive manual cars exclusively and even race them in SCCA events.

I was skilled in many things, but motorcycles were not one of them. They still aren't. You will see that the first time you try to ride.

Getting a smaller used bike will benefit you in many ways.

1. Lower initial cost
2. Little, if any, depreciation
3. Less worry when you drop it
4. Ease of learning throttle control
5. You can focus on learning the basics without as much concern of acceleration

 

[Sergent31]

Quick shifters can be added to anything, it just depends how easy it is to do and if its actually worth it.

As for your ability to ride. Watching motovlogs and the like teaches you nothing.

I'm sure you have realized the same thing happens when you watch porn, and think your good at sex.

I feel like ik enough about sport bikes to where i could hop on one and commute around town i feel like my biggest problem will be getting use to leaning in twisty back road but honestly that type of riding is hard to find in my area mostly 35mph main roads and 25mph neighborhoods

 

[Sergent31]

Thats why i dont wanna get a 250 because i dont wanna spend money and then be bored with it and need a new bike in a few months

 

[Clint Love]

Since you're in the States, you should take the MSF course. It will get you a solid foundation for when you get out on the road. I rode bikes, both sport bikes and cruisers for 15 years before taking the MSF course and I still learned a lot and was able to identify some bad habits I'd developed over the years.

I can tell you with complete honesty that reading and watching bike videos teaches you nothing about what it's like to be out there. It's like watching Bruce Lee movies and thinking you can do Kung Fu. A friend of mine calls it "Matrix Download Syndrome", the idea that learning about something on the internet will give you expertise in the actual practice of said activity. Don't let it set you up for failure, because failure on a bike can hurt really bad.

It's easy to learn to get on a bike and make it work. It's how I and a lot of the older guys started out before the MSF course was so widespread and easily accessible. The drawback to that method is you learn stuff the hard way vs the easy way, and like I said above, mistakes can hurt you.

It's not what you don't know that will kill you on a bike. It's what you think you know. Get a solid foundation for your riding with the MSF course and evolve your skill from there.

I recently moved from a 800cc cruiser to a 1100cc V-Twin Superbike and I can tell you there is a huge learning curve there. How I overcame it was by practicing the stuff I learned in the MSF course with the new bike.

As far as what bike to start with, I don't see anything wrong with a 600/650cc or even a 750, if you are careful in the beginning and really familiarize yourself with the machine before you take it out onto highways full of blind idiots on cell phones.